The Day That You Die

[Katzpur]

Whenever it's going to be, to what extent do you believe it's been pre-determined? If you think it has been, is there anything at all you can do to change it? I honestly don't know what I think.

I'm thinking about my dad. Fourteen years ago today, his heart suddenly stopped. By the time they got it going again, there was no brain activity. My mom and sister and I knew what my dad would have wanted, and we took him off life support. He died a few hours later. He was three weeks shy of his 83rd birthday.

The thing is, he had been in and out of the hospital over a dozen times during the last five years of his life (although the last two years were better than the two preceding them). There were so many times when he was so close to death that we were sure it was the end. Then he'd recover and would be okay again for a few months before something else would go wrong. Every time he was near death, I would pray so hard that he'd make it, and he always did, up until that last time, when there was really no time to pray before it was too late.

I started wondering, did God know all along that he was going to live all those other times and then die on the day he actually died? Or did our prayers influence Him? I have heard people (members of my own religion) say that no one dies until his mission here on earth is complete, and that if a person meets with a tragic accident before that time, God simply won't let him die. If it's not his time to go, then somehow he'll recover.

With respect to your own mortality, what are your views on this subject? Do they coincide with your religion's official doctrines or does your religion even have a specific doctrine on the subject?

[jonny]

My grandma went through a long two-year battle with cancer. First, it was lung cancer which later spread and became brain cancer. The entire time I was selfishly praying to keep her alive. I wanted her to be around for my wedding, children, etc. We were very close. I'm the oldest grandchild and since I had moved to Provo we visited almost weekly for years.

She had been going through radiation treatment for the brain cancer for a few weeks and it had made her so weak. After a few weeks of radiation she refused to see anyone because she was so embarrassed about what it was doing to her. One day, about five weeks into the daily treatments, I was able to go in and see her and it broke my heart. The treatment had taken every bit of strength that she had. She could hardly talk she was so weak. My sister and I sat on her bed and tried to feed her, but the radiation had messed up her brain so badly that she couldn't figure out how to tell her mouth how to do the simplest things.

On the way home from visiting her that night I stopped by Deseret Book to pick up the new conference edition of the Ensign. That particular conference had been really special to me because it was one of the last times that we were able to be around my grandma when she was still grandma. We always used to go over to her house during conference and we'd all lay in bed with her and watch conference together. That conference happened to be the day after she found out that the cancer had spread to the brain, so a lot of the family was there. We probably knew in a way that it might be the last time we spent conference together.

Anyway, that night after visiting her and before I went to bed, I opened up the Ensign and happened to read Elder Russel M. Nelson's talk "Now Is the Time to Prepare (http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-520-5,00.html)." I still remember these paragraphs of the talk sticking out to me and I underlined them in the magazine.

Brothers and sisters, we live to die and we die to live—in another realm. If we are well prepared, death brings no terror. From an eternal perspective, death is premature only for those who are not prepared to meet God.


Now is the time to prepare. Then, when death comes, we can move toward the celestial glory that Heavenly Father has prepared for His faithful children. Meanwhile, for sorrowing loved ones left behind—such as our family and me—the sting of death is soothed by a steadfast faith in Christ, a perfect brightness of hope, a love of God and of all men, and a deep desire to serve them. That faith, that hope, that love will qualify us to come into God's holy presence and, with our eternal companions and families, dwell with Him forever. Of this I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.


This talk touched me profoundly, and I decided that I was ready to let her go. So, I went in my room and knelt down and told God that I was ready to let her die if it was his will. The next morning I woke up and read through the same talk again. I then went to work and about 1/2 hour later received a phone call that my grandmother had passed away. I was shocked, but at the same time I felt comforted. I don't know if I was the last one who was ready for her to die, but He had waited for me.

I guess this is a long answer to your question. Yes, I do believe that our prayers can influence God. I don't doubt it at all.

[Katzpur]

Wow, Jonny! What special memories! Since my dad had been sick and then well and then sick and then well for five or more years before he finally died, for a long time I'd been praying that whenever he died, it would be without pain and with dignity. It was to the point where I would even say to God, "I don't care when it is. I'd rather have him die tonight and not have to suffer than keep him around for another five years and then have him suffer at the end."

When he did finally die, it was without any pain whatsoever. I was so relieved that all I could do was thank God over and over again for letting the end come peacefully.

What do you think about "accidents" taking people's lives? If someone is in a terrible accident and dies, was it that's person's time? Or does God sometimes let people die before their appointed time, rather than intervene? I ask because when I was a kid, a little boy who was several years younger than I got run over by the school bus. He died instantly and it was really traumatic for the whole neighborhood, the other kids on the bus and, of course, his family. At the funeral, our bishop said something along these lines to the family: "Don't dwell on why this had to happen. Don't try to figure out why God needed your son more than you did and took him from you, because that's not what happened. He met with an accident, a tragic accident. God didn't decide to suddenly yank him away from you. These things happen and they're terrible, but they're terrible for God, too. He is mourning with you now, because He didn't want this to happen any more than you did."

I'm not sure I agree with him, but I'm not sure I don't either. I just don't know what I believe in terms of God preventing some deaths and permitting others.

[jonny]

My initial response was to say that God always controls everything. After I thought about it, I realized that isn't correct. God could control everything, but he has given us some control through our free agency. I'll have to think about this, but I wonder if it could play a role in things.

[Lizskid]

I don't think it's predetermined. Remember we have the grace of choice, which then carries with it the grace of chance. Not only our choices determine our longevity but those of others, etc. In terms of illnesses, again, it could be that chance factor. The lesson, indeed, is valuing the time you have and the time that others have.

[Rev. Killjoy]

If you believe that "the law of cause and effect" actually governs reality outside of human thought, then like everything else that has, is or will happen, it is 100% predetermined.

[Darkness]

“It is difficult to change the immediate future with perfect results. Very difficult.”

“I asked Lucifer about it once. He said that it is like staring into a pool of water. If I stare at the pool calmly without disturbing it, the waters reflect perfectly and clearly like a polished mirror. But when I place my own hand into the pool, it creates ripples disturbing and warping that image making it hard to predict or see clearly. The more I try to clutch the image or grasp at the hand of fate, the more the waters churn chaotically.”

Astarte smiled. “If I try to see everything, I will change nothing. If I try to change everything, I will see nothing. And so I do as I see fit. And try to do what I can, as best I can.”

or

Beelzebub who had been listening to the conversation from a distance interrupted her and buzzed, “Don’t you understand? We’re all just figments of His imagination within His dream. He’s dreaming us. We are nothing. Absolute nothing. Where we come from, where we go
to, where, who, and what we are, is just and only that. We’re just wisps of cloud that evaporate and disappear into emptiness. Everything that we are, that we do, that we feel and believe, meaningless and void. All just actors in the grand play that He is dreaming. Every action. Every word. Scripted in advance. Our entire fates written out in the pages of His novel.

[kreeden]

Causality vs Free Will . It is like asking which came first , the chicken or the egg . Can you have one without the other ? I really couldn't say . :) All that I know is that the two appear to go hand-in-hand .

Do we live in another's Dream , or do we live within our own Dream ? Well , we are borned into a series of events that started well before any of us , and we have limited effect upon those events . So in a way , yes we are nothing more then a small part of those events . Yet , we have Choice . We can change those events , or we can just watch then unfold , or we can allow them to carry us along with them .

we live to die and we die to live

No matter what your believes are , that pretty much says it all . It isn't how long we live , it is all about how we live . And that is where Choice come in ....

[Slatka]

As a Muslim, my religious views of fate are very clear - as we say, "not even a snow flake melts without God's permission". Islam teaches me that our world is governed by scientific and religious rules we credit to God - for example, the point at which water boils or the process of evolution. These rules also govern the lives of many living things in the form of instinct - for example, a bear's instinct to fatten up in the fall and hibernate over the course of the winter.

As humans, God has given us free choice. That doesn't mean we are exempt from the scientific and religious rules Islam reveals to us. The consequences of our choices are all governed by these rules so, in a way, we are as well. I could choose, for example, to jump off a building - that is my God-given right. However, I can't choose what the consequences of such an act would be - the scientific and religious rules that govern everything decide that.

So we have the ability to determine our own fate within the confines of these rules.

[Katzpur]

As a Muslim, my religious views of fate are very clear - as we say, "not even a snow flake melts without God's permission". Islam teaches me that our world is governed by scientific and religious rules we credit to God - for example, the point at which water boils or the process of evolution. These rules also govern the lives of many living things in the form of instinct - for example, a bear's instinct to fatten up in the fall and hibernate over the course of the winter.

As humans, God has given us free choice. That doesn't mean we are exempt from the scientific and religious rules Islam reveals to us. The consequences of our choices are all governed by these rules so, in a way, we are as well. I could choose, for example, to jump off a building - that is my God-given right. However, I can't choose what the consequences of such an act would be - the scientific and religious rules that govern everything decide that.

So we have the ability to determine our own fate within the confines of these rules.That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, Mila. If you were to jump off a 30-story building, you'd die as a result of your injuries if God allowed the physical laws of the universe to govern what happened. He would have to override those laws in order to keep you from dying. Do you believe that God intervenes, and that sometimes people don't die when the physical laws of the universe indicate that they couldn't possibly survive a particularly traumatic event, such as a fall from a 30-story building?

[Slatka]

It should make sense - the theological perspective according to Christianity is, at least as far as I'm aware, identical.

If I jumped off a 30-floor building, then the scientific laws I mentioned dictate that I will, in all likelihood, die as a result. It's possible to measure how fast I would fall and how the impact would affect my body depending on the position I was in when I hit the ground - as I said, all of these things are scientific laws, rules I have absolutely no control over. Then there are the religious laws. If I use the free will God gave me to jump off a 30-floor building then that's suicide - that comes with its own set of consequences, for example not getting into Paradise, each long ago spelled out by God.

No one can decide to jump off a 30-floor building and choose what happens next - regardless of what you would like to happen, what happens is determined by science and religion (by God, if you have faith) or simply by science if you don't. This is the means through which there is box of sorts surrounding us, a box which we can't get out of - you might call it destiny. It's a very big box, but it's there.

As for whether or not God can change these scientific and religious rules, of course God can. These events are miracles in the truest definition of the word. It's when these rules are broken, yet from our perspective things turn out okay, that we recognize God's work. There are countless other times we don't notice these little changes but I'm sure they exist just the same. For many people, these events are just coincidence or good fortune but I don't see it that way. I don't understand or want to understand why God intervenes sometimes, I'm just thankful that God does.

[zombieharlot]

I have heard people (members of my own religion) say that no one dies until his mission here on earth is complete, and that if a person meets with a tragic accident before that time, God simply won't let him die. If it's not his time to go, then somehow he'll recover.

I'm not really going to say much, as I don't feel I have much to contribute to this topic. But I do have a question about what I have quoted above. How can that concept be true when there are so many abortions and young children that die?

[James the Persian]

It should make sense - the theological perspective according to Christianity is, at least as far as I'm aware, identical.

My impression has always been that Islam is rather more fatalistic than Christianity. The two views certainly don't seem identical to me. We (other than Calvinists and the like) certainly don't believe that God will hinder our free will and so, as a result, all sorts of things might happen without His explicit permission.

Kat,

My personal feeling is that there is no fixed fate. To an extent we and those around us fashion our fates and, of course, God clearly also has an input but as I believe that God respects our free will, I don't believe that there is an actual fixed 'day of doom' so to speak. I do believe that God knows when we will eventually die, but not that He causes it to be so - the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. That view is perfectly in line, but does not derive from, Orthodox teaching on free will and man's synergistic relationship with God.

James

[Adventus]

It should make sense - the theological perspective according to Christianity is, at least as far as I'm aware, identical.

My impression has always been that Islam is rather more fatalistic than Christianity. The two views certainly don't seem identical to me. We (other than Calvinists and the like) certainly don't believe that God will hinder our free will and so, as a result, all sorts of things might happen without His explicit permission.

Kat,

My personal feeling is that there is no fixed fate. To an extent we and those around us fashion our fates and, of course, God clearly also has an input but as I believe that God respects our free will, I don't believe that there is an actual fixed 'day of doom' so to speak. I do believe that God knows when we will eventually die, but not that He causes it to be so - the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. That view is perfectly in line, but does not derive from, Orthodox teaching on free will and man's synergistic relationship with God.

James
Agreed...I can't think of anything to add.

[Slatka]

Hmmm... interesting, James.

I think we have a very similar view of Christian teachings in this regard - the difference, I think, is in our views of Islamic teachings. Whether or not the saying "not even a snow flake melts without God's permission" is theologically sound, I'm not able to say. It very well could be and, theologically speaking, you could be absolutely right.

However, I can say that, in practice, this saying doesn't imply God causes or gives his explicit permission when someone dies, for example a grandmother - it's more a way of saying "Don't fear, she's in God's hands!" as opposed to "God killed your granny!".

God in Islam, as you're aware, is very abstract – we don't attribute as many human qualities to God as other religions do, other than God's mercy and compassion. The idea that water boils at 100 degrees Celcius and freezes at 0 degrees Celcius are scientific laws defined by God is a very easy one for Muslims because, for us, God and faith are involved in everything. So we can say - water doesn't boil at 100 degrees without God's permission. It doesn't mean God is sitting on the pot zapping the water to a boil the moment it reaches 100 degrees, it just means the rules he created are working.

If I jump off a 30-floor building, I'd die - God didn't kill me, I killed me, but I didn't die without his permission because if he had not laid out these rules, there simply would be no existence - no me and no building to jump from and no scientific laws governing what happened to me as I fell.

[Katzpur]

The two views certainly don't seem identical to me.They didn't seem identical to me, either. They actually seem to be pretty much at odds with each other.

My personal feeling is that there is no fixed fate. To an extent we and those around us fashion our fates and, of course, God clearly also has an input but as I believe that God respects our free will, I don't believe that there is an actual fixed 'day of doom' so to speak. I do believe that God knows when we will eventually die, but not that He causes it to be so - the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. That view is perfectly in line, but does not derive from, Orthodox teaching on free will and man's synergistic relationship with God.While I'm not sure that there is an "official" LDS position on the subject (I'm actually pretty sure there isn't), your viewpoint is actually pretty close to mine.

[Katzpur]

...I do have a question about what I have quoted above. How can that concept be true when there are so many abortions and young children that die?Well, I wasn't really saying that it's true. I don't really know whether it is or not. But if I were going to play the devil's advocate, I could argue that, according to LDS doctrine, babies and small children are without sin and will therefore receive the greatest reward God has in store for any of us. In that regard, I suppose it could be considered a blessing that the child did not have to endure the trials of life. That's not to say I agree with that point of view, because I don't. But I used to have a friend who, when we were both newlyweds and childless, said to me once, "I think it's so wonderful when a baby dies! He'll automatically get to go to the Celestial Kingdom," (the higest conceivable place in heaven, according to our belief). I was so turned off my her attitude that I said, "Yeah? Well, I just hope it's your kid that dies and not mine!" She shut right up, but everybody we were with just stared at me like I was some kind of weirdo.

[Ayodhya]

I don't believe my death is pre-determined by any divine forces, whether natural, Earthly forces, are quietly working towards my demise I will never know, but can't imagine they would care so much. I might actually be pleased.

[Slatka]

They didn't seem identical to me, either. They actually seem to be pretty much at odds with each other.

I can't understand this logic at all. I see nothing in what James said that contradicts Islamic views - and certainly nothing at odds with Islamic views.

We both believe God gave us free will - nothing contradictory there. Within that, we're both bound by the same scientific laws. You can't decide to flap your arms and fly to work tomorrow any more than I can. You can't decide that your children are exempt from gravity any more than I can - nothing contradictory there.

Again, with the concept of free will, there are religious boundaries that also determine our fate. When you die, God doesn't sit you down and ask what you'd like to do next, it's already defined as per the teachings of your faith - nothing contradictory there.

I just can't figure out what, exactly, differs between the two views - let alone the contradictions between them?

[zombieharlot]

...I do have a question about what I have quoted above. How can that concept be true when there are so many abortions and young children that die?Well, I wasn't really saying that it's true. I don't really know whether it is or not. But if I were going to play the devil's advocate, I could argue that, according to LDS doctrine, babies and small children are without sin and will therefore receive the greatest reward God has in store for any of us. In that regard, I suppose it could be considered a blessing that the child did not have to endure the trials of life. That's not to say I agree with that point of view, because I don't. But I used to have a friend who, when we were both newlyweds and childless, said to me once, "I think it's so wonderful when a baby dies! He'll automatically get to go to the Celestial Kingdom," (the higest conceivable place in heaven, according to our belief). I was so turned off my her attitude that I said, "Yeah? Well, I just hope it's your kid that dies and not mine!" She shut right up, but everybody we were with just stared at me like I was some kind of weirdo.

That still doesn't really answer my question, though. If no one dies until they carry out a mission, what mission could an aborted child have possibly carried out?

[James the Persian]

They didn't seem identical to me, either. They actually seem to be pretty much at odds with each other.

I can't understand this logic at all. I see nothing in what James said that contradicts Islamic views - and certainly nothing at odds with Islamic views.

We both believe God gave us free will - nothing contradictory there. Within that, we're both bound by the same scientific laws. You can't decide to flap your arms and fly to work tomorrow any more than I can. You can't decide that your children are exempt from gravity any more than I can - nothing contradictory there.

Again, with the concept of free will, there are religious boundaries that also determine our fate. When you die, God doesn't sit you down and ask what you'd like to do next, it's already defined as per the teachings of your faith - nothing contradictory there.

I just can't figure out what, exactly, differs between the two views - let alone the contradictions between them?

For my part, I'm happy to accept that it may be a misunderstanding or that the more fatalistic attitude I associate with Islam is that of a subset, rather like it is with Calvinist Christians, but I stick by what said which was that Islam appears more fatalistic to me. Having conversations with Muslims over the years has always left me with the impression that the Muslim view of God is that He has planned out our lives to a degree that doesn't hold true in most Christian viewpoints and that there is, as a result, an almost unchangeable fate. Your view certainly doesn't sound like that and maybe it's something to do with having grown up around Pakistani/Bangladeshi Muslims (I have no idea if this is so, but it seems a possibility) rather than Europeans. Other than a couple of Turks, all the Muslims I have ever spoken to in real life have been from the Indian subcontinent. They're the ones that have given me the impression I have, whether this is actually right or wrong.

James

[Slatka]

Thank you for saying my view doesn't sound like that - it frustrates me so much when what I'm trying to express doesn't get out. I could drive myself insane trying to convey what I mean - not so others believe me, but just so they know exactly what it is I'm trying to say.

Well, which view is closer to Islamic theology, I couldn't say with absolutely certainty. It is my impression, though, that most people in the east - especially in poorer countries - tend to be more fatalistic and more likely to believe in an unchangeable fate. It's my impression, though, that this has more to do with poverty and transcends some religious lines whereas the same people in wealthy countries are more comfortable with the free will God has given us.

Even in wealthy countries, though, there is the idea of a path you're meant to walk in life. This exists, at least among Bosnians, in every faith - there is a believe that every life has a purpose. That doesn't mean this purpose will be realized, it just means that there's a path that exists for you. When you follow this path, your life is a little easier - when you try to go against it, there are more obstacles and your life is more of a struggle. That sort of thing is very personal, though... every individual, regardless of their faith, feels from time to time that they are on the right path because what they do simply feels so right.

Like, when you returned to Orthodox Christianity - did you feel that way? Did you feel that you chose something you believe God wanted for you?

[James the Persian]

Thank you for saying my view doesn't sound like that - it frustrates me so much when what I'm trying to express doesn't get out. I could drive myself insane trying to convey what I mean - not so others believe me, but just so they know exactly what it is I'm trying to say.

Well, which view is closer to Islamic theology, I couldn't say with absolutely certainty. It is my impression, though, that most people in the east - especially in poorer countries - tend to be more fatalistic and more likely to believe in an unchangeable fate. It's my impression, though, that this has more to do with poverty and transcends some religious lines whereas the same people in wealthy countries are more comfortable with the free will God has given us.

Even in wealthy countries, though, there is the idea of a path you're meant to walk in life. This exists, at least among Bosnians, in every faith - there is a believe that every life has a purpose. That doesn't mean this purpose will be realized, it just means that there's a path that exists for you. When you follow this path, your life is a little easier - when you try to go against it, there are more obstacles and your life is more of a struggle. That sort of thing is very personal, though... every individual, regardless of their faith, feels from time to time that they are on the right path because what they do simply feels so right.

Like, when you returned to Orthodox Christianity - did you feel that way? Did you feel that you chose something you believe God wanted for you?

Yes. I felt as though God had drawn me to the Church. No doubt. However, that's not quite as strong as the impression I've been given by Muslim friends and colleagues. This may well be, as you say, more of a cultural than religious attitude, I really couldn't say. What mean is, I've been given the impression of sort of God ordained immutable fate by Muslims in the past. Whilst I feel God's work in my life and we say 'God willing' about as often as Muslims do, which perhaps could be seen as somewhat of a fatalistic attitude, I've never had the impression that I couldn't resist God. I mean, events seemed to conspire to lead me to the Church, and I believe that that was God, but I have never felt that I was fated to be Orthodox so much as influenced to become Orthodox. I don't believe in coincidence, though, so I'm probably somewhere between fatalistic and the opposite (sounds similar to your position) - but that fits perfectly with our theological views.

James

[Slatka]

I understand.

I think our views are very similar - which worries me because you're an Orthodox Christian. Generally, it seems to me that the religious and cultural practices we all (as in Muslims, Orthodox Christians, and Roman Catholics) exhibit here are not actually reflective of all three faiths.

For example, Roman Catholic churches in Sarajevo ring their bells five times a day (and often the older Roman Catholics in the congregation actually go to church and pray five times a day). From the outside looking in, that's clearly a practice they've picked up from Muslims - but they don't really recognize that. Likewise, Orthodox Christians say Masha'Allah. Muslims celebrate Muhammed's birthday with presents. It goes on and on and on... it's like the quote about Sarajevo: "In this valley, four religions merge into a single one - yet each keeps something of its character and is recognizable for what it is".

But I am fairly confident saying the extremely fatalist attitude in Bangledesh and many African countries is related to poverty – even if the particular individual is rich. Wealthy Bosnian families like a good bottle of peroxide and a faux fur coat as much as the women in the village shacks - that's a part of the culture that wealth can't life you out of. I think the really fatalist thing might be similar.

[marcianna]

As a Muslim, my religious views of fate are very clear - as we say, "not even a snow flake melts without God's permission". Islam teaches me that our world is governed by scientific and religious rules we credit to God - for example, the point at which water boils or the process of evolution. These rules also govern the lives of many living things in the form of instinct - for example, a bear's instinct to fatten up in the fall and hibernate over the course of the winter.

As humans, God has given us free choice. That doesn't mean we are exempt from the scientific and religious rules Islam reveals to us. The consequences of our choices are all governed by these rules so, in a way, we are as well. I could choose, for example, to jump off a building - that is my God-given right. However, I can't choose what the consequences of such an act would be - the scientific and religious rules that govern everything decide that.

So we have the ability to determine our own fate within the confines of these rules.

I realize you have explained this to great extent already and I apologize for bring it up again, but.... I don't get it. clearly it seems to me that if you jump off a building laws of physics say your gonna die. Lets try something else ok? I will give you an example and hopefully you can explain it for me? I hope I am not being to annoying by this!!!

Car accidents on icy roads. hmm..... ok it is proven scientifically that driving on icy roads can be dangerous even when salted. And lots of people drive on them but only some people get in accidents. And of those accidents only some people die. So in combination of bad driving conditions, is there something out there saying ok you die.... you die... and you die...., the rest of you keep driving? (I'm not looking at drunks and faulty vehicles in this experiment, just your basic icy roads and drivers....)
Ok lets try that and see if you can get it into my head.:duh: Good luck!

[revtroy]

As far as the Gnostic understanding goes, fate is a force, but it is something that you seek to escape from. This makes sense in the general understanding of reality as somethings cause others, and other things have a tendency to cause others. We could just as easily say "statistically most probable" rather than "fate." The conditions we are born into: biology, culture, society, ethnic identity, socioeconomic status, our parents, our siblings, the religion or lack of it, etc., are a part of this notion of fate.

To become free from fate is to get one's real free will, to live intentionally, or to live as an individual rather than as a type. The desire of many teenagers is to "be themselves" in exactly the same way as many others, in other words, to be a type.

Which is not to say that we can escape from all of these aspects of fate. The day of my own death is largely determined at this point by my country of origin (US freedom from health care), and my socioeconomic status (in ultra-calvanist US/UT).

What is interesting to me is the almost foreknowledge that is sometimes present, not consciously but in the person as a whole. Jung and others have noted that sometimes those who die fairly young go through an earlier maturation and are further along in the sense of the individual life cycle at the time of death. Over a decade ago I wondered if that was why I was always with much older people seeking psychospiritual development. It may be. It may also be that I will avoid my current fate.