World Order, Administrative Order

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Saw this on Sen McGlin's blog (http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/world-order-administrative-order/). Baha'i government stuff makes my eyes cross, but it sounds interesting.

To return to the Administrative Order and the World Order: the conversation on Planet Bahai had begun when Dale said “the World Order of Baha’u'llah is to become the “nucleus and pattern” for future society.” But that is incorrect, it is the Administrative Order which is the pattern of the World Order (which is a better way of ordering a world society). Precisely because the Administrative Order is not the same as the World Order, there is a certain relationship between them:

The Administrative Order, … may be considered as the framework of the Will itself, the inviolable stronghold wherein this new-born child is being nurtured and developed. This Administrative Order, … will, as its component parts, its organic institutions, begin to function with efficiency and vigor, assert its claim and demonstrate its capacity to be regarded not only as the nucleus but the very pattern of the New World Order destined to embrace in the fullness of time the whole of mankind.

In short, the way-of-ordering the Bahai Community – through the Bahai Administration – becomes the nucleus and pattern of a new way-of-ordering the world. Administrative Order and World Order, two conceptually different things, but with a common pattern. One is the nucleus of the other: it sits within it like one of those Russian dolls with dolls within dolls inside. The World Order of Baha’u’llah is a way-of-ordering-the-world for the era of Baha’u’llah. Religion is part of that world, and the Bahai Faith part of religion, and the Administrative Order is part of the Bahai Faith.

[briquette]

Saw this on Sen McGlin's blog (http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/world-order-administrative-order/). Baha'i government stuff makes my eyes cross, but it sounds interesting.

To return to the Administrative Order and the World Order: the conversation on Planet Bahai had begun when Dale said “the World Order of Baha’u'llah is to become the “nucleus and pattern” for future society.” But that is incorrect, it is the Administrative Order which is the pattern of the World Order (which is a better way of ordering a world society). Precisely because the Administrative Order is not the same as the World Order, there is a certain relationship between them:

The Administrative Order, … may be considered as the framework of the Will itself, the inviolable stronghold wherein this new-born child is being nurtured and developed. This Administrative Order, … will, as its component parts, its organic institutions, begin to function with efficiency and vigor, assert its claim and demonstrate its capacity to be regarded not only as the nucleus but the very pattern of the New World Order destined to embrace in the fullness of time the whole of mankind.

In short, the way-of-ordering the Bahai Community – through the Bahai Administration – becomes the nucleus and pattern of a new way-of-ordering the world. Administrative Order and World Order, two conceptually different things, but with a common pattern. One is the nucleus of the other: it sits within it like one of those Russian dolls with dolls within dolls inside. The World Order of Baha’u’llah is a way-of-ordering-the-world for the era of Baha’u’llah. Religion is part of that world, and the Bahai Faith part of religion, and the Administrative Order is part of the Bahai Faith.

An embreo sits within a person, but it's ability to evolve makes it very different from a russian doll. The Baha'i teachings use the image of an "evolving" Administrative Order. I have never seen Baha'i Teachings that describe the Administrative Order in terms of a "Russian doll".

Pete.

[Broken Winged Birdy]

Saw this on Sen McGlin's blog (http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/world-order-administrative-order/). Baha'i government stuff makes my eyes cross, but it sounds interesting.

To return to the Administrative Order and the World Order: the conversation on Planet Bahai had begun when Dale said “the World Order of Baha’u'llah is to become the “nucleus and pattern” for future society.” But that is incorrect, it is the Administrative Order which is the pattern of the World Order (which is a better way of ordering a world society). Precisely because the Administrative Order is not the same as the World Order, there is a certain relationship between them:



In short, the way-of-ordering the Bahai Community – through the Bahai Administration – becomes the nucleus and pattern of a new way-of-ordering the world. Administrative Order and World Order, two conceptually different things, but with a common pattern. One is the nucleus of the other: it sits within it like one of those Russian dolls with dolls within dolls inside. The World Order of Baha’u’llah is a way-of-ordering-the-world for the era of Baha’u’llah. Religion is part of that world, and the Bahai Faith part of religion, and the Administrative Order is part of the Bahai Faith.

An embreo sits within a person, but it's ability to evolve makes it very different from a russian doll. The Baha'i teachings use the image of an "evolving" Administrative Order. I have never seen Baha'i Teachings that describe the Administrative Order in terms of a "Russian doll".

Pete.
Pete, do you regard the Baha'i Administrative Order as something that will co-exist with a future World Government, or as the embryonic form of the future World Government?

If the former then Sen's metaphor seems very apt, if the latter than it is not a usefull descriptive tool to you. My personal reading of the Writings and Shoghi Effendi leads me to believe that the Faith will exist as a partner with the government of the world in a new form of relationship, but many Baha'is believe that all aspects of separation of Church and State will cease to exist and the Administrative Order will be a world government. I don't know which reading for sure will turn out to be true, but Sen in that article actually very clearly defends his ideas from the Writings and the words of the Guardian.

We don't have to just use phrases directly from the writingd to describe the teachings. Sure Baha'u'llah never said "russian doll", but he also never said "Progressive Revelation". Doesn't make the phrase any less usefull a descriptor.

[Booko]

My personal reading of the Writings and Shoghi Effendi leads me to believe that the Faith will exist as a partner with the government of the world in a new form of relationship, but many Baha'is believe that all aspects of separation of Church and State will cease to exist and the Administrative Order will be a world government.

It seems I think along your lines as well here. The thing is, we're not involved in politics, though at some time if it is not partisan and divisive that may change. Also, whereever we're heading, humanity is on a dual track. We don't have any direct role in building institutions that will advance peace and a loose federal global gov't, which just one reason I take your view.

I don't know which reading for sure will turn out to be true, but Sen in that article actually very clearly defends his ideas from the Writings and the words of the Guardian.

I'm not sure either. That's why it makes more sense to me to think of it as a "possibility" rather than defend it as a surety. :confused:

[briquette]

Saw this on Sen McGlin's blog (http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/world-order-administrative-order/). Baha'i government stuff makes my eyes cross, but it sounds interesting.



An embreo sits within a person, but it's ability to evolve makes it very different from a russian doll. The Baha'i teachings use the image of an "evolving" Administrative Order. I have never seen Baha'i Teachings that describe the Administrative Order in terms of a "Russian doll".

Pete.
Pete, do you regard the Baha'i Administrative Order as something that will co-exist with a future World Government, or as the embryonic form of the future World Government?

Hi, Broken Winged Birdy, nice to hear from you again.

That question is addressed by the Universal House of Justice in its letter of the 27 April 1995, Separation of Church and State.



If the former then Sen's metaphor seems very apt, if the latter than it is not a usefull descriptive tool to you. My personal reading of the Writings and Shoghi Effendi leads me to believe that the Faith will exist as a partner with the government of the world in a new form of relationship, but many Baha'is believe that all aspects of separation of Church and State will cease to exist and the Administrative Order will be a world government. I don't know which reading for sure will turn out to be true, but Sen in that article actually very clearly defends his ideas from the Writings and the words of the Guardian.

We don't have to just use phrases directly from the writingd to describe the teachings. Sure Baha'u'llah never said "russian doll", but he also never said "Progressive Revelation". Doesn't make the phrase any less usefull a descriptor.



I understand that the russian doll metaphor is being used to show the distinction between the "World Order of Baha'u'llah" and the "Administrative Order".

That metaphor would be misleading, in my opinion, if it intends to portray that the present day "Administrative Order" as not being the embryonic World Order of Baha'u'llah. This is because the Baha'i teachings referr to the Administrative Order as being the embryonic World Order of Baha'u'llah.

I believe that the phrase "progressive Revelation" can be found in the Baha'i Teachings.

"Russian doll" is a phrase that is used as a discriptor by an individual. It describes that individuals views on a certain issue. But it isn't found in the Teachings of the Baha'i Faith in relation that that particular issue.

Pete.

[Booko]

OH, thanks for pointing me at this (http://bahai-library.com/uhj/theocracy.html) letter, Pete. Somehow I missed reading that particular one.

Oh it was from 1995. I was pretty much out of life back then...no wonder I missed it. I have a lot of catch-up to do.

[Broken Winged Birdy]

Thanks for the link to the letter pete. I will study it a bit, reread the thread and get back to you when I do. I appreciate you going to the authoritative texts on this.